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Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-04 Fri, 22:02
Aloha...

When I think of all the hard work of so many people from 1996 to present day I am frankly disgusted to see recent efforts in the CRV community to strip Hrvg of its hard earned identity and cast us in the shadows of TRV. I received an email alerting me to a discussion on the Yahoo CRV list regarding Hrvg’s placement on Daz Smith’s new improved RV Historical MAP. Daz asserts that Hrvg is in fact a derivative of TRV. He discounts our military legacy and implies that Hrvg (and I) have lied about its origins and that we in Hrvg made up our methodology by stealing ideas and content from CRV.

Those of you who have been here these long years certainly know that this is not the case. As far as the CRV list is concerned I made multiple efforts to counter-post challenging Daz’s claims but it was to no avail. With Daz posturing himself to be recognized as an RV historian it is doubtful he will withdraw his assertions.

It is a sad day for RV and Hrvg. There is much more to say about this but I am far too angry to continue just now.

Glenn

Robert
2010-Jun-05 Sat, 03:45
Perhaps Daz will be good enough to lay out his evidence for making such statements. Evidence are not someone else’s statement (hear say) but hard facts. Personally I think proof would be hard to present due to all the secrecy that surrounds the beginning of remote viewing. While it is true that much of its beginnings as well as later events have been declassified that’s not true for all of remote viewings history. I’m speaking of the original groups put together by the US government. I’m not referring to anything Ed Dames or his splinter groups concocted; I still find them suspect.

I also wonder why Daz would choose to deliberately create such dissension after such a long time of peace in the community unless he feels hurt by something said or done here at HRVG; feelings can run high when there are disagreements.

Robert

Michele
2010-Jun-05 Sat, 11:38
What is TRV

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-05 Sat, 12:29
Aloha Robert,

Daz is trying to present himself as one of the leaders in the remote viewing community as well as the “New Historian” of the RV world. After challenging Paul at IRVA on numerous occasions and then leaving the forum there he has now begun the same practice of bullying his way over Hrvg and its history. I for one will not be bullied into letting him attempt to re-write history. I certainly give him no credibility as a leader or as a historian.

Glenn

Dave Barnes
2010-Jun-05 Sat, 15:48
I just took a look at Daz's map and it does seem a bit skewed. It kind of reminds me of the maps of Boston where Boston's boundaries take up half of the continent... to say the least, it's a bit CRV-centric. It's really more of a marketing history.

Unfortunately, the best secrets are the ones that people have to keep. We have to infer the real history of covert missions by "reading between the lines" or in artistic terms, "drawing using negative space."

HRVG has made its case empirically, publishing hundreds of double-blind, high-bandwidth sessions for the world to see and is recognized for introducing new research and techniques. Many groups focus on a frozen protocol and argue descendence like religious sects.

Glenn's provenance has been available for years, re:
About Glenn Wheaton (http://hrvg.org/article_style1.php?getarticleid=120)

...I particularly like the BBC's disclaimer in the credits of "The Men Who Stare at Goats": Disclaimer (http://hrvg.org/image_1_style1.php?image=library/glenn-docs/bbc_disclaimer.jpg)

The significant history of RV is a work in progress. Glenn and HRVG will have a prominent presence.

Robert
2010-Jun-05 Sat, 15:49
Michelle:
TRV is another concocted version of CRV as is SRV as are some other versions of remote viewing. If I am not mistaken TRV is an off shoot of something Ed Dames was trying to sell the public years back. I don’t pretend to know the history of his enterprise but I understand that there was some conflict, the nature of which I do not know, and he ended up selling out to new owners. TRV is Technical Remote Viewing. It IS NOT to be confused with CRV though it may look similar in structure.

For awhile there was Trans Dimensional Remote Viewing. It had NOTHING in common with CRV at all as far as I could tell. It was started by Prudence Calabrese who studied SRV under Courtney Brown. She left and started her own version of RV. There was some kind of incident of a personal nature that led Ms. Calabrese to stop teaching. However if you’re interested in seeing what the structure of TDS was like you can cut and paste this link:

http://www.remoteviewed.com/remote_viewing_prudence.html

then look at bottom of page and click on “TDS remote viewing methods can be down loaded free at……” and click. I took her course but frankly never went far with it. There are people who continue to use her method but I don’t know that there is a website dedicated to her method or not.

TDS is NOT TRV.

Personally I have nothing against TRV or the people therein. They have produced some good work if we are to believe the examples they have posted. However, in their beginnings they were loose cannons, much like Dames (no offense intended) and predicted things that were out and out bull squat. As of late they appear to be more responsible. I will have to go back in my materials and find some of their over edge statements. Really though, the past is irrelevant; best to get on with the RV enterprise in my opinion. I think we all have the tendency to get carried away by our own thoughts and opinions.


Robert

Coen
2010-Jun-05 Sat, 18:24
Is this the map that is referred to here? I got it from Google Images a couple of months back and have been meaning to ask Dick if he knew of its existence.

Dick Allgire
2010-Jun-05 Sat, 23:50
The accusation that Glenn Wheaton somehow borrowed or adapted any portion of CRV or TRV methodology is completely baseless. Anyone who would suggest that, repeat it or even imply it is merely demonstrating his own ignorance.

My first exposure to any type of remote viewing instruction occurred in January 1997, at an event hosted in Hilo on the Big Island of Hawaii. Ed Dames and Joni Dourif had taught a doctor and his wife over the course of a week, and the doctor threw a party to celebrate the conclusion of the course. It was a “meet and greet” event with Ed and Joni, and they graciously gave an introductory presentation on TRV. I flew over to the Big Island to meet Ed and Joni and to listen to them give their overview of TRV and the theory behind it. (Joni repeated this lecture at the IRVA conference in Mesquite, Nevada and I have one of the few video copies of the event.)

I later obtained the TRV video instruction course and studied that. HRVG also purchased a copy the TRV course and the entire group watched it, mostly to appreciate the vast differences between the method developed by US Special Forces and TRV. Nothing from the TRV instruction was used, adapted, or employed in the HRVG course.

In April 1997 I attended Dr. Courtney Brown’s Farsight Institute in Atlanta, Georgia. (I paid $3,000.) I learned SRV and was able to produce valid target data using this method. I still have all my notes, and every page of work produced during the week-long intensive course. I returned to Hawaii and continued my training with Cy Shinkawa, an advanced SRV associate. At Glenn’s urging I introduced the SRV method to students at HRVG, not to incorporate any protocol of SRV into our training, but to allow students to appreciate the differences, and to understand the similarities. It is all about communication with the subconscious, but there are differences in how that communication is initiated.


It was in the summer of 1997 that I heard a former military remote viewer on Oahu was conducting training. A new class was forming, and I was invited to a free introductory lecture. Since I was eager to continue my remote viewing training, I went to the lecture.

Meeting Ed Dames was interesting. Attending Farsight was fairly mind-boggling, in a good way. But from the first moment on, that lecture by Glenn Wheaton was a life-changing event.

I’m an observer and a communicator. It’s what I have done professionally for 35 years. Every day I meet, listen to, interact with, scrutinize, evaluate, and report on people. I go to meetings, speeches, and press conferences. I hear presentations. My job is to listen to people talk, and then decide if any portion of what they said is important or worth repeating. I listen to people drone and intone, complain, proclaim, and inflame, and once in a while I hear someone extraordinary. I’m a professional listener. Glenn Wheaton is extraordinary and unique.

Here was the real deal, the genuine legitimate article. There was no phony showmanship when he spoke, just a self assured manner and obvious intelligence. He pulled out his military ID card and showed it to the audience, but this was hardly necessary. He couldn’t hide his military bearing if he tried and his passion for remote viewing was unmistakable.

During the lecture Glenn held up a sketch and showed it to the audience. It was work that had been produced in the first class. “This is an Ideogram,” Glenn stated.

I looked at it and thought to myself, “That’s not an ideogram! I know what an ideogram is, I already learned about all that from Ed Dames and Courtney Brown. An ideogram should be something like sloping up, curving down, horizontal across.”


Yes, I was familiar with the TRV- SRV concept of Ideograms. Both Ed Dames and Courtney Brown taught (from the Ingo Swan lineage) that ideograms are involuntary, autonomic responses to the target that the body physically reacts to by creating a flat ideogram for land, a peaked ideogram for mountain, right angle ideogram for structure, etc.

What Glenn was holding up was a sketch that exactly resembled the target photograph. CRV, TRV, SRV doctrine didn’t allow for this.

So Glenn showed us VISUAL ideograms, ideograms created by closing your eyes and looking on Blackboard. Closing your eyes was not allowed in any training we ever heard about in TRV and SRV. The concept of a place called “blackboard” was something never described in the TRV method.

I remember Joni Dourif –while giving a presentation on TRV- stating, “What you (HRVG) do is out of protocol! That’s too high level data!”

Apparently seeing the target is not permitted in this form of remote viewing. Glenn Wheaton certainly did not use any part of TRV methodology in his instruction at HRVG.

As I was training with Glenn I realized that the differences in the methods were so profound that I actually emailed Paul Smith and asked him, “Are you familiar with a probing icon known as NIMO that employs NLP to facilitate communication with the subconscious?” Paul emailed me back, “nope, never heard of that.”

I’ve read the CRV manual. I’ve done analysis on CRV sessions for a number of projects that I have published and presented. Check out my last presentation at IRVA, there is TRV, SRV, CRV work in there. I highlighted some work produced for me by a viewer named Daz Smith. I’ve studied SRV and TRV and have worked targets using both methods. CRV, TRV, SRV is nothing like the method Glenn teaches.

There is no NLP in the Ingo Swan family tree. HRVG is based on NLP.

Although his instruction was unique and not based at all on any form of CRV, Glenn urged us to learn everything we could about every form and style of remote viewing, just to be informed and intelligent and understand the differences. Those who claim that Glenn somehow borrowed or adapted TRV have not taken the time or spent the effort to learn what is true, and are committing slander.


Anyone who repeats this lie really ought to do a lot more homework before trying to write a history of civilian remote viewing.

Aloha,

Dick Allgire
June 5, 2010

(Including the date so I can cut and paste and refer to the date the next time this specious slander is repeated. It has been stinking up the internet for at least 12 years.)

daz smith
2010-Jun-06 Sun, 04:53
First I am not trying to set myself up as any kind of rv historian.
I am also not a bully and anyone will tell you that I have always been honest and fair with everything within RV.

I am a dedicated student of rv history though and both Paul and myself have helped each other with historical rv research - (I did the dowsing research for his dowsing DVD form the star gate archives and he helps me when i have questions - as he was there) I and am more than happy to debate why my map has HRVG when it is currently located. its not an attck on HRVG its an attempt the get the history of rv down in full as best I can.

My map has it that GLENN and DICK are both trained in other methods. Glenn in TRV, Dick in SRV and TRV.

The difference in argument is Glenn does not see it want it to be said he is TRV trained on the map and he says HRVG methods came first/bore this from a military training. Which he cannot verify and i cannot verify against.

What I can verify it that dick trained in SRV and TRV before HRVG methods and that Glenn was also a student of TRV - which is what my map says?

Daz

Dick Allgire
2010-Jun-06 Sun, 07:51
The difference in argument is Glenn does not see it want it to be said he is TRV trained on the map and he says HRVG methods came first/bore this from a military training. Which he cannot verify and i cannot verify against.


Daz

Daz,
It cannot be said or implied that Glenn Wheaton is TRV trained. That is not true.

It is also misleading to put the HRVG lineage beneath TRV as if it were somehow related or adapted from TRV.

The true history of RV will never be known, certainly not by you. Your attempts to diagram what is mostly the development of one branch (CRV and its offshoots) is haphazard, incomplete and misleading.

Have you watched my presentation at the 2007 IRVA conference: "HRVG Methodology, An Overview" ?

Dick

daz smith
2010-Jun-06 Sun, 10:14
Dick,
I had this debate with Glenn already.

First we have Joni's testimony that Glenn trained in TRV.
secondly we have things like these comments:

Subject: Maj. Ed Dames
Poster: Glenn
Date: 1998-05-20 23:17 HST

“I am a student of TRV, SRV, RV and if we can get a trainer out to the
islands I would also be a student of CRV. It is very important to learn as much of this technology as possible and evaluate all methodologies. That is why the guild is formed.”

Subject: Re: re: ed dames and TRV
Poster: Glenn
Date: 1998-06-25 10:36 HST

"Aloha Steve, That's a very loaded question you've asked.
Currently Remote Viewers from Hawaii are Persona Non Grata at Psi-Tech. I
personally am deleted from their website BBS on a daily basis, even though I am a Psi-Tech Video subscriber and student of TRV. The Viewers from Hawaii who have purchased the video tape module one have been asked not to use the Psi-Tech Chatsite until we purchase module 2. I am sure this is a special rule for us."


Subject: Seeing Is Believing
Poster: Dick
Date: 1998-04-26 14:28 HST
[snip]
“When we first read about it in books, and heard interviews with Ingo Swann,
Joe McMoneagle, Mel Riley and others they talked about seeing the target. Being there, looking around in a 3-D virtual reality. That's what we wanted to do. Then as we learned SRV, and practiced with our TRV tapes, we learned there was really no visual imagery involved.”

IF Glenn is not TRV trained then why in these posts from the first HRVG BB's say he is a TRV student? Which is also what Joni claims.


The true history of RV will never be known, certainly not by you. Your attempts to diagram what is mostly the development of one branch (CRV and its offshoots) is haphazard, incomplete and misleading.

Most of the true history or RV is known I am afraid.
what is incomplete?
what is misleading?

I disagree And I had help from Paul Smith, Lyn Buchanan PJ and others in creating this RV map. CRV was the main focus for many years until '95. It cant be helped this way in the map. Then the next biggest focus is Ed Dames and TRV because this DID create most of the modern rv we have today.

You claim I will never know the history or rv ( and certainly not me) why?

I have your early bbs, the VWR elist, the stargate elist, the PSI elist, public rv articles, the cia stargate files, IRVA elist and much more all in a very large database where i can search for individual words and threads. Its not everything but it is a hefty chunk of rv history at my fingertips.


All the best...

Daz

Robert
2010-Jun-06 Sun, 10:58
Daz:

About what has been borrowed and what has not, it is possible that some of the ideas from CRV,SRV, TDS, TRV filtered into the HRVG system but its a possibility that whoever sponsored the "Special Opp's" work incorporated some of these ideas into their methodology, keeping what worked for them and discarding what did not." That Glenn and Dick both had TRV and SRV experience may be incidental. That would in no way diminish the originality of each of the said RV systems. In my opinion, Playfair and the other structures used is not used in CRV or the other off shoots with the exception of S3. I see them as original and not infringing on any of the other RV territories.

About the ideograms; they are an important part of all remote viewing so far as I caqn see, with the exception of ERV and ARV, perhaps. Its only my opinion but being critical of the ideograms is like saying we should be critical of the automobile industry for stealing ideas from the horse and buggy; they had breaks, axles and wheels. I'm not trying to be funny here or imply sarcasim, not at all. My point is that so many of the products we have today are a result of evolution; building on the backs of others and what came before.

Well, just my opinion.

Robert

daz smith
2010-Jun-06 Sun, 13:11
Robert,
I don't know what to say to please everyone.

I have two differing viewpoints and conflicting stories. On one side it looks like there was TRV training as well as other things possibly including some 'rv exposure' in the military. On the other we have the claim of only military & NLP training and no TRV or influence of any other kind.

Now I cant confirm with paperwork or any solid evidence to either side of this argument so I left this with a '?' on the map and the text saying so.

I believe this is fair until (one day) paperwork or evidence either way changes the picture - don't you?

Daz

Michele
2010-Jun-06 Sun, 14:02
Why isn't it appropriate for all of the Stargate members to be directly under Ingo Swann? Why isn't Joe McMoneagle not even on there?

Dave Barnes
2010-Jun-06 Sun, 16:44
I'm afraid your data is working against your case, Daz. When you're talking about guild members learning other techniques, it's following the phrase "Currently Remote Viewers from Hawaii"... these are people who are -already- remote viewers learning different techniques outside of their own Special Forces originated methods.

CRV is dogmatic about sticking to "The manual" as a completed martial art, as if -- it's as good as "Viewing" gets. From this perspective, it might look like everybody is "trying to be CRV."

Think about this. It's OK for HRVG remote viewers to learn things from other branches. Is it OK for your branch to see if something is better? HRVG is doing research. Some groups are doing religion. (Re: branding, remember Ingo Swann wouldn't let anyone use SRV - the word "scientific" was replaced with "controlled".)

If you're working on a recent history for "the skill currently known as remote viewing", Glenn's group's origins are independent of the SRI group. A link that might help you get started is Richard Ireland (http://www.drrichardireland.com/) ... Glenn's group's mentor analogous to "Ingo Swann" and you might want to check out the co-founders of NLP.

The Stargate Archives are just a bit of information, a releasable bit. If you notice "Approved for Release" dates, you'll probably realize that there is a lot of information, even in that branch, that is still secret.

I recommend that you use the "negative space" approach with your database materials if you want to get a lot more out of them. Read a lot of psi research, what natural psychics said about being psychic, etc. prior to Stargate, then see what disappeared or seems to be "under-represented" in the data.

Dick Allgire
2010-Jun-06 Sun, 18:04
Daz,

Have you watched my presentation at the 2007 IRVA conference? It was entitled, "HRVG Methodology, An Overview."

Dick

Zylon
2010-Jun-06 Sun, 23:52
Is this the map that is referred to here? I got it from Google Images a couple of months back and have been meaning to ask Dick if he knew of its existence.

No Coen,

There is an updated version now online at the following link
http://www.remoteviewed.com/rvhistorymap.html

http://www.remoteviewed.com/rvmap/images/all_26_05_final_08.gif

daz smith
2010-Jun-07 Mon, 01:15
Why isn't it appropriate for all of the Stargate members to be directly under Ingo Swann? Why isn't Joe McMoneagle not even on there?

Joe is on there - in multiple places - all correct.
Joe wasn't trained by Ingo or in the Ingo techniques - though he was exposed to them in the unit. Joe is included in the separate programs (Grill Flame, Center Lane) then he retired and worked for SAIC and Ed May in mainly a science based route of RV (they did also do some ops work) till 1995

Other members of the unit were also not trained by Ingo Swann or Ingo's CRV - but were trained in the adapted Military CRV that closely followed.


Have you watched my presentation at the 2007 IRVA conference? It was entitled, "HRVG Methodology, An Overview."

Dick,
I did email you back on this - but for months my emails to you have bounced back - Not to my knowledge I don't think I have.

Dave,

I'm afraid your data is working against your case, Daz. When you're talking about guild members learning other techniques, it's following the phrase "Currently Remote Viewers from Hawaii"... these are people who are -already- remote viewers learning different techniques outside of their own Special Forces originated methods.

The argument on my map is that I have Glenn trained in TRV - this is based on Joni's comments on her website and Glens own comments of being a TRV student. Every other person on my map even if they trained in their final 'resting' method later has all their available sources and training listed if i can verify it.


CRV is dogmatic about sticking to "The manual" as a completed martial art, as if -- it's as good as "Viewing" gets. From this perspective, it might look like everybody is "trying to be CRV."
I don't understand this comment - this isn't a CRV thing?


Think about this. It's OK for HRVG remote viewers to learn things from other branches. Is it OK for your branch to see if something is better? HRVG is doing research. Some groups are doing religion. (Re: branding, remember Ingo Swann wouldn't let anyone use SRV - the word "scientific" was replaced with "controlled".)

Im not saying it is wrong - I'm a crver - but I also mixed elements form SRV into CRV because CRV didn't work as I wanted it to - methods have to be allowed to develop and change. All I'm trying to do with the map is generate an overall rv picture.


If you're working on a recent history for "the skill currently known as remote viewing", Glenn's group's origins are independent of the SRI group. A link that might help you get started is Richard Ireland ... Glenn's group's mentor analogous to "Ingo Swann" and you might want to check out the co-founders of NLP.
I have already and yes I have confirmation that some NLP techniques were used in some spec ops work (increasing gun shooting accuracy, etc, etc) I can not confirm that Richard Ireland was involved in this - in fact I have other NLP peoples names.


The Stargate Archives are just a bit of information, a releasable bit. If you notice "Approved for Release" dates, you'll probably realize that there is a lot of information, even in that branch, that is still secret.

Absolutely - but ive never claimed my map is final or 100% accurate - its the best I can do with available information. If i ever get concrete or paper proof of Project Jedi and rv training including NLP then I will amend it all - for now I have two opposing sets of claims.


I recommend that you use the "negative space" approach with your database materials if you want to get a lot more out of them. Read a lot of psi research, what natural psychics said about being psychic, etc. prior to Stargate, then see what disappeared or seems to be "under-represented" in the data.

Dave, I have hundreds of books of psi, I have the important ones - before I trained in remote viewing I was a trained clairvoyant, healer, medium. I have been involved in channelling, divination (tarot, crystal ball, sand, tea) and even participated in a few exorcisms. I know the history of PSI and being psychic not as much as rv as this is my focus - but I do know it. I have books going back to the late 1800s on psi many very rare.

All the best...

Daz Smith














All the best...
Daz

Dick Allgire
2010-Jun-07 Mon, 07:00
Dr. Courtney Brown is a major figure in civilian remote viewing. He published a popular book based on his TRV training with Ed Dames, "Cosmic Voyage." And he published a second book, "Remote Viewing- The Science and Theory of Nonphysical Perception."

He weighs in the current debate:

"The HRVG methodology is one of two unique remote-viewing methodologies developed by the U.S. military in the latter part of the 20th Century. The primary creator for this methodology was Dr. Richard Ireland, and his contribution was located within the Special Forces branch of the U.S. Army. CRV is the other primary remote-viewing methodology developed by the military, and its primary creator was Ingo Swann. His contribution was located in military intelligence (the D.I.A.) within the U.S. Army. The two methodologies differ markedly in their probing sequences as well as some of their basic fundamentals. Some of the innovations within each approach have been incorporated into other remote-viewing methodologies that are derivative of the original military versions. For example, the 'Blackboard' technique from HRVG has been incorporated into other (civilian) approaches to remote viewing, such as SRV."

Courtney Brown, Ph.D.

daz smith
2010-Jun-07 Mon, 07:57
well when I can find/see any real evidence of this other than hearsay I will be happy to amend my map.

on the other side of the coin:
a recent email from:

XXXXXXX SFC (R) USSF, Ft.Bragg. NC


Dear XXXXX,
I hope you are well.
Just a couple of last questions if I may.
Approx how long did the jedi program last – im told it was a few months?
Secondly did you have exposure to NLP during this program at the university of Hawaii in 1983?
Have you ever heard or a Dr Richard Ireland?
all the best...

Daz



Daz, yes this is correct, the Jedi only lasted a few months, so did the trojan warrior program. The SOLO program lasted from 1984 to 1999, with individual localized course continuing on until a couple of years ago. Most of this training is still classified.

Yes on the NLP, but not in Hawaii. I went thru the program in NC.

No, not a Dr. Richard Ireland, there was a Dr. Richard Clayberg from Kaman Tempo corp, Dr. Richard Graves from BDM corp.

I hope this helps Daz..


see what I mean conflicting claims until some evidence is produced.

I don't see this going anywhere fast and you guys know where I am if you want to discuss but going back and forth in public does no one any good.

Daz

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-07 Mon, 11:08
Daz,

There were indeed Jedi programs at Bragg. While you quote an anonymous retired soldier why would you believe him? Have you pulled his FOIA data as you have mine? Is he held to the same level of scrutiny that you apply with me? I doubt it. You are playing out an agenda to cast dispersions and doubt about events that occurred before you were even born.
W.

daz smith
2010-Jun-07 Mon, 12:19
Glenn,
I'm more than happy to discuss this and anything in a correct and proper manner. I'm not happy to be accused of anything like being a bully and to put up with snide comments like
about events that occurred before you were even born.

I was born in 1970 - not that this even makes the slightest bit of difference?

Nor even the fact that you had to go running to people like Courtney with our debate to drum up trouble to make a big scene about this instead of adult debate.

I'm not going to fight with you over this. I will amend my map when either side produces real evidence other than hearsay. Until then its your word against their words which is why I feel I have fairly left in in the map.

You've already stated you give me no credence, that im no rv historian and more - then fine If it bothers you that much create your own RV history map - you are allowed to as is anyone.

If you want to discuss you have my email.

Dick
I have tried to respond to your emails and more for 2 months but my emails back to you always get bounced back to me for some reason - they are not getting thru. something to do with my Ip being blocked) i think - i dont know im not an email expert..

Daz

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-07 Mon, 17:34
Daz,

I do not intend to standby while you re-write history. As far as Dr. Brown is concerned I have not contacted him in regards to this problem. You don't seem to want your name disparaged but you would cast shadows on mine.

W.

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-07 Mon, 21:47
Daz I used to have a lot of respect for you. When your done being punked by PJ and Alexander let me know.

W.

daz smith
2010-Jun-08 Tue, 01:37
Glen,
again you are incorrect.
I actually defended you in discussions with PJ and others a while back saying we all had to work together, that they all had to forgive past differences and move on. In online discussions I have both sided with your point of view and against it when I felt it wrong. I have no allegiances other than to RV.

Secondly I have never at this time had an email or ANY communication at all with John Alexander. There is No punking going on - I'm a student or RV and its history and I can make my own mind and decisions based on what I find during my journey.

Thirdly I am not rewriting history - i am honestly reporting what I find warts and all. If more fact present themselves that creates a different picture I will amend anything I have done to accommodate these facts.

I am not casting shadow IMO on your name. you said you were a student of TRV on your own forum, others also said this. So like everyone else on my map (where possible) their sources of RV training was indicated.

Daz

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-08 Tue, 06:23
Daz,
These are defining issues and Hrvg and myself will not yield. We have been attacked over the years from countless sources from the CRV community. Now the plan seems to be to claim victory by stating that my origins are with TRV.

Not happening.

For the record I obtained my RV training while serving in the US Army. The Hrvg methodology was conceived and formulated at that time. I introduced this methodology in 1996 to the first class of Hrvg students.

This was prior to the release of the CRV manual; this was prior to the release for sale of any TRV instructional materials. Since that time I have had to deal with some of the most unscrupulous people you can imagine. They have tried to discredit me, and Hrvg. They originate from schools that charge thousands of dollars for what we give freely. They originate from Hate Sites like TKR and people of the worst possible ilk such as Palyne Ganier.

I’m pretty much done playing nice.
So let’s see where this goes.

Glenn

daz smith
2010-Jun-08 Tue, 08:29
Glenn,
we are still at an impasse. When and If I am able to find a single shred of tangible evidence for Spec ops remote viewing training and your participation in this then I will amend my map.

These comments and the map are my own and not from any school or method or from TKR. There is no grand conspiracy.

All the best...

Daz

Dick Allgire
2010-Jun-08 Tue, 08:30
Glen,
again you are incorrect.
I actually defended you in discussions with PJ and others a while back saying we all had to work together, that they all had to forgive past differences and move on. In online discussions I have both sided with your point of view and against it when I felt it wrong. I have no allegiances other than to RV.

Secondly I have never at this time had an email or ANY communication at all with John Alexander. There is No punking going on - I'm a student or RV and its history and I can make my own mind and decisions based on what I find during my journey.

Thirdly I am not rewriting history - i am honestly reporting what I find warts and all. If more fact present themselves that creates a different picture I will amend anything I have done to accommodate these facts.



Daz

Daz,
A quick question. Where did you get all the material you've been using?
Did you collect old posts and statements and email yourself?

Have you personally read every forum and collected every post?

Or did someone help you and send copies to you?

We do smell P.J. Ganier's stink in all of this.

Dick

Dick Allgire
2010-Jun-08 Tue, 08:38
Glen,
I'm a student or RV and its history and I can make my own mind and decisions based on what I find during my journey.

Daz

Daz,
You're not so good on your "research" and you are a pretty piss poor "student."

You are attacking the origins of the HRVG method, and you have not taken the time to even look at or understand HRVG methodology.

I asked you if you have ever watched my presentation to IRVA in 2007 titled "HRVG Methodology, An Overview."

You have not.

I made the presentation at a major conference involving most of the top names in remote viewing. This DVD has been available for several years. You have not bothered to watch it, and you don't understand even the basic concepts of the HRVG method that you are attacking.

Your credibility in the RV community is being shredded as you demonstrate your own ignorance, while the top people in the field have embraced Glenn, his students, and HRVG.

Dick

daz smith
2010-Jun-08 Tue, 10:08
Look I didn't want to get into this in public but if you insist.


Daz,
A quick question. Where did you get all the material you've been using?
Did you collect old posts and statements and email yourself?

Have you personally read every forum and collected every post?

Or did someone help you and send copies to you?

We do smell P.J. Ganier's stink in all of this.

Dick


Dick
I stated this already I have a massive database or all the CIA star gate docs (90k) RV articles, rv papers, personal emails (13 yrs worth from every major RV egroup), the old VWR e-list, old PSI elist, Stargate elist an some of the IRVA e-list all in my database. I have the capability to search inside posts, documents and article for single words, phrases or just about anything. Its how I research Rv history.

So yes as some point I have read and can access any and all of this material - check for yourself on these list I have participated since 1997 - i am a collector and collected everything for any subject that I am interested in. I also have hundred of audio interviews, transcripts and pretty much every available RV video in the public domain.

This is all my work, these are all my comments - the RV map was all my work - i asked paul, lyn and pj and 4 others to check some of it.


Daz,
You're not so good on your "research" and you are a pretty piss poor "student."

You are attacking the origins of the HRVG method, and you have not taken the time to even look at or understand HRVG methodology.



Dick now why do you have to get aggressive and not nice.
There is no need to speak with that tone and in that way.
I told you in posts here that I hadn't, I also told you in PEMs but they get bounced back and have done for weeks as I have been trying to email you on other things.


Your credibility in the RV community is being shredded as you demonstrate your own ignorance, while the top people in the field have embraced Glenn, his students, and HRVG.

Dick I beg to differ. Tis the ignorance of others that is being shredded and has been for at least ten years as these posts below state - and which have NEVER been resolved or answered. (sorry Lyn and Paul for posting your old comments here).

The year is now 2010. Way back when in the year 2000 on the Stargate e-list we have the exact same debate as we are having now. You know this because you too were a participant.

At this time Ed Morgan, Lyn Buchanan and Paul smith were embroiled in a debate over the claims of spec ops rv training with Dick and Glenn;




Jan 5th, 2000
Snip Here...
>has been since rallied into quite a witch hunt. Maj Smith you will have
>to excuse me if I don't attend the obviously impartial proceedings here
>at Stargate. Of course you may try me in absentia as is your
>perogitive.

A marvelous display, Glenn. But you have not successfully distracted me
from the fact that all we've gotten from you in response to Ed's questions
is smoke and mirrors (except for your statement that you weren't involved
with PsiTech). And you can knock off the "Maj." stuff, as well. i don't
call you "Sergeant," do I? Fact is, before I went to OCS I spent almost
three years enlisted--more than half of that time as an NCO (98G2LAP/GEK3,
as a matter of fact...). So lay off the BS.

> Wasn't there always someone from SF around?
>Surely there was someone about? Someone that got the briefing? Remote
>Viewing may have been secret from the world but it was not secret
>within the community after all Capt Dames found you. Do you really
>believe that it was of little interest to SOF intel and no one outside
>of the the shop at Ft Meade ever looked at it?

Actually, there were a number of different RV efforts going on at various
times, and we knew about most/all of them. SF people briefed?
Probably--but so were as many as a couple of dozen other major intel
consumers and customers. That didn't mean they had their own
programs--though some of them did, from time to time. What is your point
here?

regards,
Paul



lyn buchanan jan 5 2000

At 12:30 AM 1/4/00 -0800, Dick wrote:
>does anyone actually believe that what Glenn is teaching is really a
>bastaradized version of TRV?

I'm not certain what that question has to do with my post. The point of my
post was to say that Glenn's military background and its >>>official<<<
ties to remote viewing are what everyone is asking about. Because of
certain things which were and were not found out about his story, way back
when he first came to light, there is actual cause to not believe it.
Therefore, the question remains, and there are no answers forthcoming,
because Glenn won't give them.

Nobody is asking whether he's a nice guy, nobody is asking where the HRVG
methodology came from, nobody is asking any of that. But in the process of
all this sidestepping, everyone is getting heated up, calling characters
into question, success rates, etc. etc. etc.

The question is only about the official ties between Glenn's unit and RV.
Everybody keeps mucking the whole thing up with "nice guy", "doesn't
charge", "successful sessions", etc. In the process, the real question
never gets answered.


OK: Here's another attempt at simplicity.....

Glenn says that his unit officially trained him in RV and used it (and his
skills) in its work. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there are
actual reasons for doubt. Therefore, the question is: "Prove it!" There
is no other question going on here except that one, and has not been from
the very start. One question only: "Prove it!"




Lyn responding jan5, 2000
Dick continued:
>Lyn, I think the only way you could ever be satisfied would be to meet
>Glenn face to face and spend some time talking with him. (snip) Why don't you
>free up your schedule and come out to paradise later this year?

I hope to do that some time in the near future. I'm looking forward to it.

OK. Now that all that is taken care of, though, let me point out that none
of the above relates in even the most minute way with the question at hand.
The real question remains unanswered. It didn't take a psychic to predict
that it would. That is why I have been saying that we should just get on
with other things. Glenn is not going to answer the question, and frankly,
I'm too tired of all the sidestepping to care any more.

So dick the question of HRVG in my map remains now as it did those 10 years ago. Prove it!

As to credibility - I'm sorry but I'm not the one with the credibility issues. Its always been the issue of Glenn s I am afraid. I'm also not the one using inappropriate language against another person in debate out of frustration.

I'm still waiting for you to answer Lyn and Paul's questions to this day like I was way back in 2000. Until someone does and I have tangible evidnece the position remains as it is in my map. And to people embracing Glenn in the field - I have no problem with anyone being embraced for their rv - that has and never was the issue.

We are still going around in a 10 year plus cycle - therefore i have no more to say on this.

Daz Smith

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-08 Tue, 11:40
I have come up with a plan that I think may work. Now there are folks who know I come out of SF Intell and to some that is "The Dark Side". While we do lots of good things, we also do all the very bad things that make things like the Geneva Convention oh so much toilet paper. So here is my game.

You got a library and I have a library. Let's take everyone in the RV world and apply your standards of belief to them. To be fair I will begin alphabetically. Everything they have said and done over all these years on radio, TV, in print, on the web and in conversations for which there is a record.

You cannot trust anyone. Does your library have the Stargate documents from Paul or did you do what we did and process the appropriate forms to the US Government to get those documents? We actually did both and you know what...the document count is way wrong. So you don't really know what is missing now do you. Back to my plan....

As I said we take everyone including me and hold them to the exact same standard. We won't leave out any dirt so this wont be for the faint of heart. You want to check some closets and check for skeletons then I am all for it.

While I will not break my oath and spill the secrets, I think I am over qualified to give you a tour of the bullshit. So throw some Wagner on the old IPOD and get ready.

W.

daz smith
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 07:35
You cannot trust anyone. Does your library have the Stargate documents from Paul or did you do what we did and process the appropriate forms to the US Government to get those documents? We actually did both and you know what...the document count is way wrong. So you don't really know what is missing now do you. Back to my plan....

So you are now claiming that paul editied the library he sold and took certain documents out of it?

I will check with Paul on this - I think I did enquire if the copy sold was the entire archive - but will check.

PLAN we need to no plan - other than this plan:

After over 10 years of ducking and diving and avading Paul, Lyns and many other peoples request for proof of militray rv training - how about proof.

now thats a plan.


As I said we take everyone including me and hold them to the exact same standard. We won't leave out any dirt so this wont be for the faint of heart. You want to check some closets and check for skeletons then I am all for it.

Yep lest go for it - im happy to discuss the truth and if my map is incorrect and there is tangible proof to show otherwise I will change it - I've said this all along.

so lets have your skeletons?

daz

Coen
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 08:30
Not choosing sides here and for all intents and purposes I rather stay out of this argument altogether, but I have a question for you Daz.

Are you saying that Paul Smith 'sold' you those databases? Did I read that correct? I have been site admin for a number of sites, among which a still in active operation forum of 40+ thousand members. These 'databases' contain not just posts, but also Private Messages and other privy communication between its members. If mr. Smith did indeed sell, or even give away this information, then that is to be considered a very GRAVE breach of privacy.

Not to derail the topic, but when I read about databases being shared, that rang a big fat alarm bell with me. I hope you're not snooping around in private comms as well, to aid you in drawing up that map.

Just my 0.2.

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 10:09
Ahhh A perfect example.

Let’s see I said…
---------
“Does your library have the Stargate documents from Paul or did you do what we did and process the appropriate forms to the US Government to get those documents? We actually did both and you know what...the document count is way wrong. So you don't really know what is missing now do you?”
--------
Then you replied…
----------
So you are now claiming that paul editied the library he sold and took certain documents out of it?
--------
This is a perfect example of tendency… Now I did not say that Paul edited anything, or that he took documents out of it. You said that. You implied that. My point was that you think your Stargate documents are definitive and constitute a truth when in-fact they do not. Because you did not obtain them from the source.

This brings us to your map. It is not only incorrect but is actually pedestrian in its portrayal of the architecture of the Remote Viewing research throughout its long history. You omit correctly identifying many key individuals and military organizations. Even the documents you do possess contain names and dates of specific people not mentioned in your map. Heck if I just look at my own organization you list me as the owner when I am not. The Guild was founded by Phillip Lau, Yaana Alin, and Glenn Wheaton. We are the founders. There are 8 instructors at Hrvg who teach and they are not to be found in your map. It is very easy to just say INSCOM, but who in INSCOM? What specific unit or organization in INSCOM? What was Chief Warrant Officer Joseph McMoneagle’s organizational assignment? What section in DIA was responsible for the remote viewing effort? What about the CIA? What desk or section administered the program?

So what you have is not a truth, it is less than true. It is more of an abridged story and less a record that can be authenticated.

Ohhh time for a skeleton. By the way Dale Graff never commanded anything, only the President and commissioned officers can command. What civilian director (hint above) tasked the unit to spy on an American in violation of USSID 18? Now that’s a skeleton worth finding.

When you tell me to break my oaths and spill the beans about RV in SOF to prove something to you (a foreign national) I am not inclined in the slightest to give you information you are not entitled by US law to have. Whether you believe me or not is unimportant.

If you ask Paul the following question…

Did any other Uniformed Services besides the United States Army ever investigate, or start an effort to explore remote Viewing? What do you think the answer would be?

He will say yes.

But are these entities on your map? Do you know anyone from these efforts? If someone from these projects came forward they would face the same issues I do.

More as it happens…

W.

Debra
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 10:18
Is Daz MI-5 or MI-6? ;-)

Dave Barnes
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 13:57
Unless people have been sending Daz private recipient-intended emails (which should only be available from the recipient), I don’t think he’s been looking at anything that wasn’t public.

The main information source that Daz is referring to is the “Stargate Archives”. When the Stargate project ended, a bunch of boxes of papers, articles, session notes, receipts, proposals, correspondences, and such were sent to the National Archives. Because the project was secret, none of the documents could be released without being declassified, that is, officially stamped to indicate that they were “no longer secret”.

The declassification process requires that people who thoroughly understand the subject matter and have the proper security clearances go through the available material to decide what is appropriate to release to the world and what information to keep secret. Paul Smith was involved with the declassification requests and possibly the declassification process. In late 2005 or early 2006, the declassified documents were made available electronically by the government. For a nominal fee, Paul distributed these documents or a subset of these documents on CDs and included sort of a “field guide” that he had written indicating how the data was stored and where you might find some interesting items.

The CDs comprised over 80,000 items stored in the government’s multi-image tiff file format , paired OCR text files for the items, and a set of Excel sheets with document IDs, titles (all in uppercase), CD indexes, National Archive box numbers, and other access information. Needless to say, this was an unwieldy way to look at the material and many of us who obtained the CDs combined the contents for direct access and made our own databases to handle the material.

What was released was kind of a jumble. As an early adopter, I perused the contents using the available text (the copy qualities and OCR text were pretty sketchy) in a data mining fashion and linked the contents back to the image documents because it seemed like the only efficient way to view them. I gave Paul an installable copy that year (although I don’t know if he ever tried it) because I recognized how much work was involved in the effort and thought it might save him some time.

[Around 2007, Tamra Temple made an Excel-based index for the archives that she offered for sale. I believe that she looked through the documents directly and grouped them. I haven’t used her product so I’m not sure exactly what or how she covered the material.]

I respect the amount of work involved. It would be natural for Daz to create a similar database and to download –public- forum content to add to the text pool.

So Daz’s data sources are probably public, but mainly represent a particular “searchable text” subset of the information that is available.

The IRVA (International Remote Viewing Association) is the most “official” group for presenting and maintaining remote viewing information. IRVA convenes annually and provides a peer group where people share history and ongoing research. IRVA presentations are available to the public on DVDs, but text transcripts haven’t been made available. As Dick pointed out, HRVG’s provenance has been presented in the only official forum for RV, it just hasn’t presented as text so this –official- information is being filtered out of Daz’s current map.

Jim Channon, another Jedi that Daz is wondering about, will be the keynote speaker at IRVA within the next couple of weeks. I imagine that there will be some interesting history to report for anyone who listens.

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 19:14
Is Daz MI-5 or MI-6? ;-)

Aloha Debra,

Hmmm prolly whould have to be MI-6. But he couldn't admit to it.

W.

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 19:48
Aloha Dave,
Excellent comments, Colonel Channon (really LTC) would be the original Jedi, an Imagineer beyond even Walt Disney.
I know what Daz is trying to do and while his map is certainly eye-catching it simply doesn’t really reflect even the known history accurately. There are certain things it just doesn’t illustrate and that is because he does not define out the relationships. I will give a few examples.

Who is INSCOM’s boss? It is certainly not the DIA and certainly not the CIA. These were INSCOM soldiers Skip, Bill, Joe, Paul, Lyn, David, ED et all were actually assigned to a specific military unit which goes unidentified. While they certainly may be OPCON (operational control) to an office at the DIA they were in fact garrisoned next door to their real boss, the NSA. People who look at the Stargate records can easily recover the architecture by decoding the message distribution. It really is an effort worth doing right.

Daz has relied heavily on PJ for his open source information. She was the mastermind behind the “Your RV Sucks” website and even now controls the dominate RV hate site “TKR”. She has a long history of clashes with Hrvg and under no circumstances can be considered non-partisan.

W.

mj001jk
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 20:26
The proof is in the protocol. Enough said.

Aloha,
Jim K.

Coen
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 21:51
Unless people have been sending Daz private recipient-intended emails (which should only be available from the recipient), I don’t think he’s been looking at anything that wasn’t public.
I hope I didn't come across as implying he was. It was just something I read and (as we say in my country) makes my hair stand up straight.

I believe (and to a certain extent 'know' (at least from what I have read in so-called conspiracy theory websites)) that the US government is very rigorous about its release of information in the public domain, whether by ending of a predetermined classification date, or through the FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act). But even so, we all know how a certain Gary Mc K. was able to access very classified information using only his home computer and Internet access. Thus, although your elaborate explanation (thanks for that by the way) certainly proves the bulk of these cases are handled well, sometimes mistakes are made. And I can imagine that going through a database with thousands upon thousands of 'records' some things might be skipped because it's simply too vast to check word for word.

Don't take this the wrong way. I can see you're very knowledgeable in this area. I'm just stating the obvious that regardless of all the security in place, these things are common.

Now, back to topic? Or back to remote viewing? ;o)

daz smith
2010-Jun-09 Wed, 22:56
coen,

Are you saying that Paul Smith 'sold' you those databases? Did I read that correct? I have been site admin for a number of sites, among which a still in active operation forum of 40+ thousand members. These 'databases' contain not just posts, but also Private Messages and other privy communication between its members. If mr. Smith did indeed sell, or even give away this information, then that is to be considered a very GRAVE breach of privacy.

NO
Paul sold me the CIA stargate documents which are in .tiff format.
The database is my construction. I converted al 90,000 pages to OCR text pdf files. The other files(other than my personal 13 years ol rv emails) are all public domain and website files at one point or another that I have collected.

So no breach of privacy - its all material I have collected and now store in a very large searchable database.


Not to derail the topic, but when I read about databases being shared, that rang a big fat alarm bell with me. I hope you're not snooping around in private comms as well, to aid you in drawing up that map.

I have never shared my database - its my perosnal construction.

Glenn,


This is a perfect example of tendency… Now I did not say that Paul edited anything, or that he took documents out of it. You said that. You implied that. My point was that you think your Stargate documents are definitive and constitute a truth when in-fact they do not. Because you did not obtain them from the source.

I disagree the implicationi in your email was that I did not have a full copy of the Stargate Archives and that in it not being full - Paul censored it before selling.

Firstly when I bought the stragate docs form Paul - it was after years of watching and hearing him discuss rv - always in a professional manner. I trusted him to supply a full uncensored copy of the files. I have since spoken to Paul and he said he did when rearranging the files into some order delete some of the duplicate files. I believe this as some of the files within the archives repeat upto fifteen times. I have no reason to believe that my copy is not a full version other than the omition of a few duplicate files.

Unless you are saying otherwsie.

I will bet and I am happy to put in a FOIA request (i have done many in the past) for an original copy of the CIA Stargate docs - but Im 99.9% sure right now - they will not produce a single shred of further evidnece about any secret spec ops rv training.


This brings us to your map. It is not only incorrect but is actually pedestrian in its portrayal of the architecture of the Remote Viewing research throughout its long history. You omit correctly identifying many key individuals and military organizations. Even the documents you do possess contain names and dates of specific people not mentioned in your map.

I disagree - yes the head of the units at key times are not named - but there agian a MAP that shows EVERY single person involved in a 30 year history would be an impossible job.

here is the original email i posted to people to comments on and help me refine the map - which you got being on the CRVERS list:
please note my bolded text.

"Hi remote viewers,
I've been working on this for a while - I wanted to try to get in visual
form a map showing the progression of Rv from Intel and science through to
the public domain, the emergence of the different schools and all the key
players in this process and their relationships.

So here it is - it never going to be 100% accurate or complete with every
person accounted for - but it does give an overall accurate picture.

http://www.remoteviewed.com/rvhistorymap.html

All the best...

Daz"





Heck if I just look at my own organization you list me as the owner when I am not. The Guild was founded by Phillip Lau, Yaana Alin, and Glenn Wheaton. We are the founders. There are 8 instructors at Hrvg who teach and they are not to be found in your map.

Thats fine - as I said to everyone form the start - its not 100% correct and its not final - If you want me to add to your HRVG listing then I can.


It is very easy to just say INSCOM, but who in INSCOM? What specific unit or organization in INSCOM? What was Chief Warrant Officer Joseph McMoneagle’s organizational assignment? What section in DIA was responsible for the remote viewing effort? What about the CIA? What desk or section administered the program?

Glenn its a visual map not a book - if people want a complete history then its best to read a book. Adding small details like this - which you don't get in visual maps - overweight the map and its use - which its an overview.


So what you have is not a truth, it is less than true. It is more of an abridged story and less a record that can be authenticated.

No what I have is a map that has been created to the best of my ability and knowledge - never claimed as being 100% correct or final. Your being anal here - visual maps dont generally do what you are asking - these are left for larer tomes like books and documents.


When you tell me to break my oaths and spill the beans about RV in SOF to prove something to you (a foreign national) I am not inclined in the slightest to give you information you are not entitled by US law to have. Whether you believe me or not is unimportant.

Glenn in My opinion and in the past opinions of many including Paul Smith and Lyn Buchanan - this is rubbish!
You have stated in printed word on video and more that you were part of a secret project (JEDI) that you saw a goat being killed, that you were trained in military remoet viewing and more. If this isn't breaking your 'alleged' security oath then what would be?
A secret means nothing is to be discussed - not even the name of it. The ONLY reason you cant say anything else is because there is nothing else.
Your playing a game of smoke and mirrors and it wasnt believed by Paul, Lyn, Ed myself and others ten years ago - and its not believable now.


Did any other Uniformed Services besides the United States Army ever investigate, or start an effort to explore remote Viewing? What do you think the answer would be?

I already know what the answer would be - i have documents. we know that other parts of the military looked into psychic skills - this doesn't mean that you were a spec ops trained remoet viewer - your stretching this so far its like playing 'Stretch Armstrong' with you.



But are these entities on your map? Do you know anyone from these efforts? If someone from these projects came forward they would face the same issues I do.

Glenn these entities arent on my map becasue;
a. they arent on the RV world radar
b. arent out in the world doing rv and teacheing/running businesses
c. they didn't actually remote view but ad hoc loosely 'played' with psi

Debra,

Is Daz MI-5 or MI-6? ;-)
Maybe i was trained as an MI5 agent for a secret program called 'xxxx' but i am not allowed to discuss any of the work we did or that the fact it was a secret project and we uses xx technhiues. ;)

Dave:

Unless people have been sending Daz private recipient-intended emails (which should only be available from the recipient), I don’t think he’s been looking at anything that wasn’t public.

The main information source that Daz is referring to is the “Stargate Archives”. When the Stargate project ended, a bunch of boxes of papers, articles, session notes, receipts, proposals, correspondences, and such were sent to the National Archives. Because the project was secret, none of the documents could be released without being declassified, that is, officially stamped to indicate that they were “no longer secret”.

The declassification process requires that people who thoroughly understand the subject matter and have the proper security clearances go through the available material to decide what is appropriate to release to the world and what information to keep secret. Paul Smith was involved with the declassification requests and possibly the declassification process. In late 2005 or early 2006, the declassified documents were made available electronically by the government. For a nominal fee, Paul distributed these documents or a subset of these documents on CDs and included sort of a “field guide” that he had written indicating how the data was stored and where you might find some interesting items.


My emails have not been quoted or published and are just for my perosnal reference to rv history. The forums posts and public e-lists have been used.
Im not aware Paul was included in the declassification process, Ed May was as he was the last Program Director. Paul was long gone before declassification.


As Dick pointed out, HRVG’s provenance has been presented in the only official forum for RV, it just hasn’t presented as text so this –official- information is being filtered out of Daz’s current map.

Tis true - I have not seen the IRVA video of this talk.


Jim Channon, another Jedi that Daz is wondering about, will be the keynote speaker at IRVA within the next couple of weeks. I imagine that there will be some interesting history to report for anyone who listens.

Maybe maybe not - (If i am correct) doesn't he say on his website FAQ's that his work was only ideas like a think tank and he was not involved in anything paranormal in the military, and that he hasnt a clue if they killed goats at Ft. Bragg?


Glenn,

Aloha Debra,

Hmmm prolly whould have to be MI-6. But he couldn't admit to it.

This is my problem - if your work was so secret how come you have part admited and disicssued it but not in detail?

On a separate note NO I am not MI anything - although I have hassled them for years on various topics using the FOIA (so they will have a file of my letters) and I did get a massive 1000 page DI (defence Intelligence) document on remote viewing/PSi released from the UK MOD a few yrs back.



I know what Daz is trying to do and while his map is certainly eye-catching it simply doesn’t really reflect even the known history accurately. There are certain things it just doesn’t illustrate and that is because he does not define out the relationships. I will give a few examples.


I disagree as a visual overview of the key players now and then it does a fairly accurate job.


Daz has relied heavily on PJ for his open source information. She was the mastermind behind the “Your RV Sucks” website and even now controls the dominate RV hate site “TKR”. She has a long history of clashes with Hrvg and under no circumstances can be considered non-partisan.

Rubbish!
I relied on my 13 years experience and database of 13 years of material from all available public sources. You keep trying to blame PJ for my comments - with no evidence. This is my map, my creation, from mainly my material.
This hasn othing to do with TKR or PJ. you want to complain then the fight is with me on my map not PJ or TKR. Again another use of smoke and mirrors.

Anyone can see for themselves - just go back to January 2000 on things like the public Yahoo group - Stargate e-list - there is a long and heated debate on all this and comments form people like Lyn Buchanan and Paul Smith - its all there in public for people to see.

Paul helped me with some errors of military details, Lyn with dates, PJ with the inclusion of TKR in the map, other people helped me with TDS history and other small things.

As I said from the start - ANYONE can create their own map of rv history - if you don't like mine then you can create your own. But I can also amend the HRVG section on the map to included some of your comments if you wish.

Daz

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-10 Thu, 01:07
Daz,

I have been waiting for you to say what you really mean and you didn’t let me down. Nothing like a little vitriol to start the day. Daz I do not care if you do not think or believe that Intelligence in SOF looked into Remote Viewing. We have reached the fringe of civility.

It is at this point that I request that you remove any mention of Hrvg from your map. Hrvg is an approved State and Federal non-profit organization and we hold the copyright for our name and do not wish it to be used by someone whose belief will make it subject to misrepresentation to the public.

W.

daz smith
2010-Jun-12 Sat, 01:56
Glenn,
first don't misquote me I never said that Sec ops didn't 'look into remote viewing' I said there is no tangible proof they 'trained you in remote viewing' there is s difference.

by all means suggest that I annex HRVG from RV history.
The map does not defame of misrepresent HRVG or contravene any copyright laws it represents a fair viewpoint based on available evidnece.


Copyright is the set of exclusive rights granted to the author or creator of an original work, including the right to copy, distribute and adapt the work. These rights can be licensed, transferred and/or assigned. Copyright lasts for a certain time period after which the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to a wide range of works that are substantive and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work.

I only mention the name of HRVG and do not copy or distribute any work. Therefore have broken no copyright?

Daz Smith

Glenn B. Wheaton
2010-Jun-12 Sat, 14:00
Daz,

I do not care what you believe. What I do care about is your attempts to discredit me in a community of my peers and allege that I am a liar and a thief. Regardless it reflects directly on those I have trained and the organization we have built.

You talk about Special Ops like you know something about it. You do not. You don’t know and cannot understand the hard work, risks, or sacrifices we have made year after year. So don’t talk to me anymore about Special OPS. I have tolerated it but no more.

Chief Joseph McMoneagle made a statement many years ago on my behalf.

//in-here//

"As a separate issue; I have been asked about Glenn's military history in the past. I now reiterate, I've known Glenn for a long time. As a result of conversations I had with MG Burt Stubblebine and others within the Command at INSCOM between 1984 and 1985, I know that Glenn Wheaten was part of a 'Special Forces Team that was introduced to RV.' Since this subject involves Glenn and whatever agreements he's made with the government, it is not for me to say anything else about the matter. I will add that I also knew Glenn as a Special Forces soldier, and his character and abilities, like many of those I knew in the Army back then was beyond reproach. For that alone, he deserves the appropriate consideration and respect for his service to God and Country."

//out-here//

You can’t seem to understand that I am not going to tell you information you have no right to know. If the result of that is that I am to be hounded and accused, called a thief and a liar, then I guess I will continue to deal with that from you; keep in mind that also has its own price.

Glenn