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Glenn B. Wheaton
2011-May-18 Wed, 02:51
Aloha All,

Recently we have been informally chatting about bio-feedback and the effects of sound. Dick and I have been playing a bit with reversing some of his original music which has been very interesting. I wanted to offer some more advice on the value of sound and sounds to the brain and its relevance to Remote Viewing. I had my first bio-feed experience while in the Army in the early 1980’s and while it wasn’t earth shattering it was interesting for several reasons.

Perhaps the most interesting factor was that it allowed for what I call the Beta Escape. As we muck our way through the day we shift between different levels of Beta awareness with and without speech. We transition from expression to comprehension and various types and forms of communication. We get spikes of hyper Beta and little episodes of Alpha rising along the way and with the correct levels of bio-chemical activity and exhaustion we can slip from Beta directly to a mild state of Theta. The first bio-feedback trick I learned was to simulate Alpha while maintaining my Beta awareness. This was fairly easy because I am a musician. I began by pitching tones in my mind while reading.

I had to make many attempts before I was able to keep a tone playing in my mind while I would read or converse or work a puzzle. About the same time I began to count everything. I would count my steps, count the dwell between here and there, I forced myself to count while in alert Beta. Soon I found that I could maintain three (3) different mental activities simultaneously. In truth because of time each were separate activities but the brain was muxing them as a batch. Using tones, counting and a primary Beta activity I could maintain a fairly firm Alpha level while in Beta.

I want to make the point here that I was never able to generate a robust Theta signature while functioning primarily in Beta. To inflate Theta I had to clamp off the Beta activity and disassociate myself and learn to function in a quasi Beta state. Lucid dreamers play with this state but I only lucid dream occasionally, perhaps two or three times a year. What gave me an edge was the tens of thousands of hours I spent spinning the knobs on collection radios sifting the heterodyne for signals in the night. While sweeping through the radio bands listening to the noise of the radio floor you hear a great many anomalies and some of these sounds are actually quite pleasant. You hear a mixture of white noise, lightning strikes, off-pitch music stations, radio teletype, Q3a facsimile broadcasts, packet radio, telemetry transmissions, morse code, radio beacons, sideband and sub band voice transmissions and a host of classified signals. What made the constant sifting of all the radio noise tolerable was the friendly hiss of the radio floor below the signal thresholds.

When I was taking NLP at the University of Hawaii and bio-feedback sponsored by the Army I was able to find the frequencies that are the most conducive to Theta illumination. The frequencies were the hiss of the electromagnetic floor between 2 and 3.5 Hertz. While Theta is a bit higher in frequency it is the effect that is most important. Initially a pulsed hiss at 2 Hz at twice your heart rate is what we used in bio-feedback exercises to see an increase of the Theta signature. This coupled with quality audio equipment can help you achieve a mixed state where you can maintain a good Theta bloom while you work a math problem or read a book. The mind is a wonderful tool because of our ability to remember. You will find that over a short period of time you can learn to create these tone levels by remembering them and then learning to continue them after the memory dwell time passes. It is a bit like synthetic Tinnitus.

My initial advice would not be to invest in expensive bio-feedback equipment but to find or download a signal generator that can create the floor hiss in the 2 to 3.5 Hz range and just listen to it while you read or send emails or some other activity. The hiss could be recorded and put on your I-Pod etc. Just listen to it for awhile and gain familiarity with it. Stay away from the 4 to 11 Hz frequency range because of an effect called blanking. If you have the knowhow to pulse the 2 Hz signal it would be even better. I am sure Dick and I will push through a bit about this so don’t feel too lost. I will post a few links to some sound tools you can play with.

Glenn

Glenn B. Wheaton
2011-May-18 Wed, 11:11
Sound, or more appropriately vibration is very useful to allowing for the disassociation of the functioning Beta state. I believe that an altered state is best for Remote Viewing activities because Beta has a specific purpose. It is the overall command and control of the NOW and not the most conducive as your Taxi to the past or future. Beta is ever present while you are awake but it can be eclipsed with the right type of stimulation. While electrical would be the preferred with some type on field induction it could be harmful.

Sound is managed in the brain and can be used to induce chaos or euphoria and a thousand shades in between. We donít really want to dream; but have a coherent altered state where Beta, while active, shares command and control with Alpha. I have spoken before about the possibility to create and maintain a duplicity of consciousness. Beta can share with Alpha fairly easy as we catch ourselves escaping for a moment or so, and likewise Alpha and Theta so there is your algorithm.

The Beta dominant awareness will yield to a rising Alpha with an appropriate distraction. Music is the most common distraction to the alert Beta, or cyclic sounds at certain shifts and frequencies. Bio-feedback is an excellent tool to learn how your mind shifts but it is not what is really needed for Remote Viewing. You just want a known quality of what makes your Alpha rise to the point where it coalesces coherently with Beta. That becomes the first duplicity.

Once achieved Alpha can be cajoled into bringing Theta to the mix. This results in a mixed state that either triggers a state of Hyper Beta, or a Quasi Beta state. While hyper Beta is easily lost in the noise Quasi Beta is an actual functioning of a dominant Alpha reaching up to Beta and down to Theta. Think of inclined orbit at Theta and you will find a functioning coherent awareness at Alpha. Quasi Beta is a much more stable platform from which to Remote View and far less fragile than hyper Beta.

These are altered states that from which one continues to function in reality. There is no difference really between someone under the effect of a drug while conscious and alert than someone running different lines of self induced brainwave activity. You havenít disconnected anything but merely learned to shift within yourself. Sound is preferable to drugs as a catalyst for altered states. You donít really want the whole Alice through the looking glass baggage.


Glenn

Dave Barnes
2011-May-19 Thu, 17:29
These are some very interesting ideas...

I helped in a lab doing right-brain left-brain monitoring in the late seventies --picture the kind of technology William Hurt was using in Altered States. In our case, we used the integrated level of Alpha measured from the right or left hemisphere as an indicator of its inactivity (as defined by non-Beta) while people from different walks of life performed specific tasks.

My familiarity with brain entrainment approaches is limited to the over-the-counter kinds of things like hemi-synch and some magnetic stuff that Persinger has been working with.

Jean Millay talks about success with light and pattern pulse entrainment.

Sound, light patterns, and electromagnet arrays, and electromagnetic vibrator arrays are all relatively non-invasive things to work with.

I've made motion random-dot stereograms that I believe could be used to change prescribed depths in "visual white noise". I think that the approach could be used to combine Ganzfield with augmented skrying. (I'm not familiar with the term "inlined orbit at theta", but it sounds like the point of falling asleep where your eyes start to roll back. When I drift off to sleep while aware, I recognize the state change by depth and motion cues and I believe that it would be possible to simulate that.)

It's likely that combined presentation modalities would make it possible to tune to dissociative states more selectively or induce them more rapidly (modulated visual, audible, gustatory, kinesthetic) than with individual ones.

If there's an interest in having some tools to try I'll be happy to help make them.

Of course, I have a million questions here...

... This thread could get pretty long.

Robert
2011-May-19 Thu, 20:59
You might want to visit Robert Monroes site, The Monroe Institute, as he pioneered the use of sound to alter brain wave patterns. He eventually embedded the patterens in music. I have a few of the CD's and before I lost my hearing had some very interesting experiences with the Hemi Sync Technique.
Robert

Michele
2011-May-22 Sun, 11:26
These are some very interesting ideas...

I helped in a lab doing right-brain left-brain monitoring in the late seventies --picture the kind of technology William Hurt was using in Altered States. In our case, we used the integrated level of Alpha measured from the right or left hemisphere as an indicator of its inactivity (as defined by non-Beta) while people from different walks of life performed specific tasks.

My familiarity with brain entrainment approaches is limited to the over-the-counter kinds of things like hemi-synch and some magnetic stuff that Persinger has been working with.

Jean Millay talks about success with light and pattern pulse entrainment.

Sound, light patterns, and electromagnet arrays, and electromagnetic vibrator arrays are all relatively non-invasive things to work with.

I've made motion random-dot stereograms that I believe could be used to change prescribed depths in "visual white noise". I think that the approach could be used to combine Ganzfield with augmented skrying. (I'm not familiar with the term "inlined orbit at theta", but it sounds like the point of falling asleep where your eyes start to roll back. When I drift off to sleep while aware, I recognize the state change by depth and motion cues and I believe that it would be possible to simulate that.)

It's likely that combined presentation modalities would make it possible to tune to dissociative states more selectively or induce them more rapidly (modulated visual, audible, gustatory, kinesthetic) than with individual ones.

If there's an interest in having some tools to try I'll be happy to help make them.

Of course, I have a million questions here...

... This thread could get pretty long.

Robert...I would be interested in discussing this somewhat. I have always daydreamed so much it is almost the same description as what is called bi-location by the remote viewing community at large. It's just natural for me to sit down and slip away. And frustratingly enough..I don't remember my dreams. I would love to work with better understanding in this.

Michele
2011-May-22 Sun, 16:04
Aloha All,
This was fairly easy because I am a musician. I began by pitching tones in my mind while reading.
Glenn

Iíve never been interested in playing an instrument, but I always have a song in my head. Seems like a tune is always running in the back of my mind.



I had to make many attempts before I was able to keep a tone playing in my mind while I would read or converse or work a puzzle.


I canít do math while Iím humming a song.




About the same time I began to count everything. I would count my steps, count the dwell between here and there,


This is more what I do to keep from sinking into a Beta state when I need to be in an Alpha state. I do lots of things to keep myself attenuated and not drift off in a daydream.

Glenn[/QUOTE]


I can never get a chance to log/journal the tones that I get in my ears, because Iím always doing Ďsomething elseí when it happensÖsuch as driving. It happens a lot while driving. Iíll try to pay attention more to little things.

I love the Theta music while doing the remote viewing sessions. Classical music is good tooÖ

Michele
2011-May-24 Tue, 08:23
Aloha All,

<snip>

some of these sounds are actually quite pleasant. You hear a mixture of white noise, lightning strikes, off-pitch music stations, radio teletype, Q3a facsimile broadcasts, packet radio, telemetry transmissions, morse code, radio beacons, sideband and sub band voice transmissions and a host of classified signals.

<Snip>
Stay away from the 4 to 11 Hz frequency range because of an effect called blanking. If you have the knowhow to pulse the 2 Hz signal it would be even better. I am sure Dick and I will push through a bit about this so donít feel too lost. I will post a few links to some sound tools you can play with.

Glenn

I cannot stand white noise. And, what I mean by that is that I become instantly frantic to make the noise stop. It doesn't annoy me; it's the same effect as someone screeching their nails down a blackboard.

But, the Theta music Dick sends me is good. How do I know what Hz signal that is?

Glenn B. Wheaton
2011-May-24 Tue, 12:41
The low frequencies used for Alpha and Theta are not in the frequency range for normal human hearing. It does not mean that you do not react or respond to these low frequencies just that you can't "Hear" them. They are usually laced within the modulation of a signal that can be heard. It is sort of a heterodyne where 2 frequencies are generated specifically to create a new audible frequency. It is the basis for hemi-sync and several other processes.

White noise is a specific type of noise and a lot of noise effects in radio are wrongly attributed to white noise even by experts. The background noise in communications equipment is a combination of many different noise sources. You can generate white noise that is not like scratching a blackboard if you really need it. While you cannot hear 2.5 Hz a signal can be modulated on that frequency that is audible.

I have been checking out the different free signal generators and have yet to find on that will go below 20Hz. More to follow... on that.

You will need a fairly sophisticated sound analyzer to figure out the baseline frequency usage or distribution of the music Dick sent you.


W.

Tony
2011-May-24 Tue, 20:59
Hi Glenn,

Do we need a stand alone 2.5 Hz to begin with to ride an audible frequency if 2.5 can be heterodyned by beating two audibles 2.5 Hz apart or is there a difference in the approaches?

Tony

Robert
2011-May-24 Tue, 21:41
As for myself I can no longer use the Hemi Sync CD's. My hearing is gone in my right ear due to nerve damage. Some people have tried to sell me a bill of goods saying the CD's will work anyway. I don't believe it. Others have tried to tell me that ANY vibration will work as long as there is a difference in the rate on either side. So far I have seen no research to back any of these claims up. If your hearing is gone, its gone.
Robert

Dave Barnes
2011-May-25 Wed, 13:10
Do we want to end up with something like gamma white noise that's being volume modulated by a sine wave at the selected frequency or frequencies?

If that's the kind of thing we're interested in trying, I can probably make a digital generator for it. Digital waveform generators are pretty straightforward because you just have a list of numbers that represent the sine values at any desired resolution for 360 degrees. You can deliver the wave at any rate that you need, enveloping a higher frequency signal for sound delivery, or through Analog to Digital converters for other kinds of delivery such as magnetic waves, light brightnesses, etc. (Note: The sound card of most computers can be used as the A to D, so there really isn't any hardware involved here.)

This works for sub hz (less than 1 360 degree cycle/second delivered), or specific things like Schumann resonant frequencies where you might want to deliver 7.83, 14.3, 20.8 hz.

If we want to be able to deliver two frequencies for a binaural beat, that's OK, too.

Michele
2011-May-25 Wed, 13:16
The low frequencies used for Alpha and Theta are not in the frequency range for normal human hearing. It does not mean that you do not react or respond to these low frequencies just that you can't "Hear" them. They are usually laced within the modulation of a signal that can be heard. It is sort of a heterodyne where 2 frequencies are generated specifically to create a new audible frequency. It is the basis for hemi-sync and several other processes.

White noise is a specific type of noise and a lot of noise effects in radio are wrongly attributed to white noise even by experts. The background noise in communications equipment is a combination of many different noise sources. You can generate white noise that is not like scratching a blackboard if you really need it. While you cannot hear 2.5 Hz a signal can be modulated on that frequency that is audible.

I have been checking out the different free signal generators and have yet to find on that will go below 20Hz. More to follow... on that.

You will need a fairly sophisticated sound analyzer to figure out the baseline frequency usage or distribution of the music Dick sent you.


W.

I guess the white noise I'm referring to would most properly be called static. Even if I'm just changing the radio station, I dread it because I might have to endure static. Seems these days you have less and less of it, but that's also because technology has developed enough that I don't have to do channel surfing like we did years ago.

Glenn B. Wheaton
2011-May-26 Thu, 02:36
There are a few acoustic problems using beat frequencies or synthesized frequencies. While they are mathematically correct they usually lack the gain needed for the full effect or the wash effect. Let me give an example. When you hear a tiger or lion roar a portion of the sound is well below the 20Hz minimum for human hearing. In this case say you are walking in the mountains of Malaysia and turn the corner at a stand of bamboo and suddenly a tiger rushes you roaring loudly. You will not immediately be able to move and you will hear the roar very clearly. You were just sound stunned or paralyzed by infrasound probably around 14 Hz and then 7 Hz and then a bit at 28 Hz. In the moment you were stunned the whole noise floor of your brainwave signature leaps in amplitude and you cannot send the appropriate signals to your feet to take flight. These low frequencies need not only volume, but also pitch adjustments. We are not looking for subliminal affects but a genuine acoustic wash to shift certain frequency amplitudes in the brainwave signature.

Hemi-sync is a tease for the quiet mind but if you want to really shift you need a bigger bear. Try Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, that will kick your Alpha up a notch or two and then for several minutes afterward there is a residue effect because your Alpha does not come down immediately. This is the recipe for cool down music selection. Everyone has a different pitch affinity that lures their Alpha up, my favorite is a Finnish metal band called Nightwish track 14 "Ghost Love Score" off their End of an Era recording. The sheer volume of heterodyne effects below 20 Hz combined with beat oscillation from the constant pulsing of the low pitch drums leaves you fairly Alpha Stunned. Don't try that at home if your over 50 unless you have some single malt scotch handy.

Glenn

Glenn B. Wheaton
2011-May-26 Thu, 02:50
Hmmmm I am thinking maybe we can help a bit. Have you ever heard of Flanagan's Neuro-Phone. Somewhere in the library we have one. It is pretty cool because it uses the skin to send sound to the brain and not the auditory system or bone induction. I will ask Sita to give a hunt for it. It may need a new set of special head phones but they can be ordered from several companies. I stopped using it because it was messing with my sleep cycle and giving me weird dreams. Initially the sound it creates in the brain was very high pitched but only at first. After a while the sound fills out. A totally different type of sound as it is absent the left-right ear delay. You do not need to put the headphone over your ears. I usually put them just above the left knee on the bare leg. The sound seems to be in the middle of the brain, but if you put your ear next to someones ear who has the neuro-phone on their leg you will hear the sound being re-broadcast by their ear which seems to be working in reverse. A very strange device.

Glenn

Robert
2011-May-26 Thu, 08:16
Now that would be interesting. Any information you have on hand would be helpful.

I enjoyed using my Monroe CD's when I could use them. I had some pleasant experiences but never on the order of magnitude described by people who went through the Monroe programs. This has led me to wonder how much of my experience was from the CD's and how much was from my own inborn talent.

Robert

Dick Allgire
2011-May-26 Thu, 18:25
Hmmmm I am thinking maybe we can help a bit. Have you ever heard of Flanagan's Neuro-Phone. Somewhere in the library we have one.

Glenn

The NeuroPhone is not in the library. I have it my office, right next to me now.
That thing f&#K*d me up bad. I was hovering just about a half meter above my body, deciding if I had the courage to go farther when my wife walked in.

Then, for 3 days I had a terrible headache right where the conduits had connected to my temples. I have been afraid to use that thing.

I use a Theta induction CD called Atlantean Sounds for RV.

Dick

Tony
2011-May-26 Thu, 21:11
Two questions Glenn:

To my knowledge,no speaker or headphone can reproduce frequencies in the 2.5Hz range even if they are embedded in white noise or hiss and if they could it would not be audible. So how are these frequencies to be created in such a way that they can be transmitted to have an affect on the brain?

Isn't alpha associated with a relaxed, calm meditative state? I've heard Baroque music can help induce an Alpha state but it hard to imagine Ride of of the Valkyries doing the trick.

Glenn B. Wheaton
2011-May-27 Fri, 02:28
Aloha Tony,

Excellent questions and while they may be near the limit of my knowledge base I will give them a go.

If you look at your fm radio dial and think a bit you may wonder why you just can’t hear the oldies on 107.9; it is well within the acoustic range and the tower is 250 feet high and it’s broadcasting at 20,000 watts. What’s up with that? I can tell you know where I am going here I can hear your brain working it.

When you get below 1 kilohertz very strange things happen. Some people get up very early and sit on their lanai to watch the dawn as the sky begins to lighten and the sun begins to creep above the horizon. It can be very relaxing but few have actually heard the night fall back and give way to the light of day. It is an ELF/VLF experience but it can be experienced audibly. Anyone with a decent receiver that will tune down to 500 Hz or lower ($$$) will hear the whistlers, crickets, and hiss band of the Dawn Chorus as plasma waves move up from the earth and begin to sweep up through the ELF/VLF spectrum. While you need your eyes to see the light of the rising sun and a good radio to hear it, the electromagnetics of your body is affected by it. When we are down this low in frequency wavelengths get very very long and to actually hear these frequencies you would need to modulate a signal onto these wavelengths and then pulse or speed them up a great deal for it to be audible. Submarines deep in the ocean receive trigger messages via these low frequencies because the long wavelengths penetrate the deep ocean layers. It may take quite some time to receive even a short message at these frequencies.

In all practicality to create a 2.5 Hz tone you would have to “beat” this using heterodyne and it would be more of an electromagnetic effect than an acoustic one. It can in fact include acoustic qualities if such are present on the two source frequencies used to create the heterodyne bridge. Let’s get back to the Malaysian jungle and the tiger for a bit. The tiger roars and you are momentarily frozen and then he eats you like a sausage biscuit. You did not hear the frequencies that paralyzed you, but your electromagnetic and neuro systems did. Every bit of you is listening all the time, there are just thresholds that evolution has tailored within us for detection and response.

If you go inside a Faraday cage and run through the electromagnetic spectrum with your spectrum analyzer (I have two an HP and an AVCOM) you will see (hopefully) a quiet spectrum. Activate one signal generator at 50 Hz and one at 52.5 Hz and rescan your spectrum you will see your source signals but you will also see a myriad of other signals popping up all over the spectrum. These other signals are the harmonics and sub harmonics and if you scale down to 2.5 Hz you will see your heterodyne bridge. It will be weak because the two source signals were not muxed and output in a single channel but because of the cage and the proximity of the generators you get a natural heterodyne. Much of the noise floor of the radio spectrum is the wash of the culmination of the RF activity and the effects across a spectrum. The heterodyne bridge is a field effect. In most cases, if not all, the signal generators use a heterodyne to create the frequency being used. So electromagnetic produced frequencies being modulated with electromagnetic media (voice, music etc) can create a field effect in the brain that is outside the acoustic range but can shift or change the brainwave signature. Simply put, 2 sounds on different frequencies can produce a sound that you can’t hear but that you can feel. You could multiply that by some clever compositions which create sine or square (yuk) waves that need both hemispheres of the brain to form and then begin to rotate it or perhaps turn it upside down. That’s why Monroe is the king of Hemi-Sync.

On to your second question…. Alpha is a frequency state not a mood state. You would need to view the spectrum to see which frequencies excite the Alpha range and nothing really requires harmonics to be harmonious. 

Glenn

Glenn B. Wheaton
2011-May-27 Fri, 02:41
Holy cow...you didn't put that thing on your head did you? LOL I never put headphones where the contacts are copper plates on my head...

Maybe we could ship that thing off to Robert? I know we like him a lot and he is one of us...but sometime research has its price.

Glenn

mj001jk
2011-May-27 Fri, 10:18
Robert,

It is possible to induce an alpha or theta dominant brainwave state through visual stimulation. The difficulty lies in fine-tuning the stimuli so that it lies above the individual's sensory threshold but below the perceptual threshold.

Jim

Robert
2011-May-27 Fri, 16:33
Hey Glenn:

Sure. I'd be happy to give it a try. No really. In four more years I'll be 70 years old; what ELSE could possibly happen to me?!!!!

Is the Echo-fone the same thing?

Robert

Glenn B. Wheaton
2011-May-27 Fri, 17:16
It is more than likely an updated version of it. The technology for the neurophone is pretty old. The components of the neurophone are sealed in a block of very hard Lucite or other composite material that won't let you copy the unit without expensive X-rays. To disassemble the unit would destroy it.

Glenn

Robert
2011-May-27 Fri, 21:12
Here is some more information I found on Echo-fone. Does this sound anything like the Neuro-phone?

http://altered-states.net/barry/newsletter264/index.htm

Robert

Dick Allgire
2011-May-27 Fri, 23:10
Holy cow...you didn't put that thing on your head did you? LOL I never put headphones where the contacts are copper plates on my head...

Maybe we could ship that thing off to Robert? I know we like him a lot and he is one of us...but sometime research has its price.

Glenn

I put the copper plates (headphones) on my right knee, as I recall. Then I put the copper plate headphones on my temples. It produced a fairly decent continuous low level shock and induced a pretty wild out of body experience. It was like someone was playing The Grateful Dead on a very poor transistor radio across the room, not very loud, and I was compelled to go to it, but had to float out of my body to get to it.

I was hovering there deciding "What the F*@#?" when Mimi opened the door and walked in and asked "What are you DOING?" I came to, blinked a few times and stammered something incoherent.

Then my temples felt like they were getting an electric shock for about 2 1/2 days.

So, you're not supposed to put the copper plates on your head when you fire it up? What's the correct procedure?

Yikes.

Dick

Michele
2011-May-29 Sun, 06:52
There are a few acoustic problems using beat frequencies or synthesized frequencies. While they are mathematically correct they usually lack the gain needed for the full effect or the wash effect. Let me give an example. When you hear a tiger or lion roar a portion of the sound is well below the 20Hz minimum for human hearing. In this case say you are walking in the mountains of Malaysia and turn the corner at a stand of bamboo and suddenly a tiger rushes you roaring loudly. You will not immediately be able to move and you will hear the roar very clearly. You were just sound stunned or paralyzed by infrasound probably around 14 Hz and then 7 Hz and then a bit at 28 Hz. In the moment you were stunned the whole noise floor of your brainwave signature leaps in amplitude and you cannot send the appropriate signals to your feet to take flight. These low frequencies need not only volume, but also pitch adjustments. We are not looking for subliminal affects but a genuine acoustic wash to shift certain frequency amplitudes in the brainwave signature.

Hemi-sync is a tease for the quiet mind but if you want to really shift you need a bigger bear. Try Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries, that will kick your Alpha up a notch or two and then for several minutes afterward there is a residue effect because your Alpha does not come down immediately. This is the recipe for cool down music selection. Everyone has a different pitch affinity that lures their Alpha up, my favorite is a Finnish metal band called Nightwish track 14 "Ghost Love Score" off their End of an Era recording. The sheer volume of heterodyne effects below 20 Hz combined with beat oscillation from the constant pulsing of the low pitch drums leaves you fairly Alpha Stunned. Don't try that at home if your over 50 unless you have some single malt scotch handy.

Glenn

I like Ravel's Bolero for a similar work. The Sorcerer's Apprentice would probably work as well and Flight of the Bumblebee