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Thread: Hrvg gets thrown under the CRV bus...

  1. #11
    daz smith Guest

    Default

    Dick,
    I had this debate with Glenn already.

    First we have Joni's testimony that Glenn trained in TRV.
    secondly we have things like these comments:

    Subject: Maj. Ed Dames
    Poster: Glenn
    Date: 1998-05-20 23:17 HST

    I am a student of TRV, SRV, RV and if we can get a trainer out to the
    islands I would also be a student of CRV. It is very important to learn as much of this technology as possible and evaluate all methodologies. That is why the guild is formed.”

    Subject: Re: re: ed dames and TRV
    Poster: Glenn
    Date: 1998-06-25 10:36 HST

    "Aloha Steve, That's a very loaded question you've asked.
    Currently Remote Viewers from Hawaii are Persona Non Grata at Psi-Tech. I
    personally am deleted from their website BBS on a daily basis, even though I am a Psi-Tech Video subscriber and student of TRV. The Viewers from Hawaii who have purchased the video tape module one have been asked not to use the Psi-Tech Chatsite until we purchase module 2. I am sure this is a special rule for us."


    Subject: Seeing Is Believing
    Poster: Dick
    Date: 1998-04-26 14:28 HST
    [snip]
    “When we first read about it in books, and heard interviews with Ingo Swann,
    Joe McMoneagle, Mel Riley and others they talked about seeing the target. Being there, looking around in a 3-D virtual reality. That's what we wanted to do. Then as we learned SRV, and practiced with our TRV tapes, we learned there was really no visual imagery involved.”

    IF Glenn is not TRV trained then why in these posts from the first HRVG BB's say he is a TRV student? Which is also what Joni claims.

    The true history of RV will never be known, certainly not by you. Your attempts to diagram what is mostly the development of one branch (CRV and its offshoots) is haphazard, incomplete and misleading.
    Most of the true history or RV is known I am afraid.
    what is incomplete?
    what is misleading?

    I disagree And I had help from Paul Smith, Lyn Buchanan PJ and others in creating this RV map. CRV was the main focus for many years until '95. It cant be helped this way in the map. Then the next biggest focus is Ed Dames and TRV because this DID create most of the modern rv we have today.

    You claim I will never know the history or rv ( and certainly not me) why?

    I have your early bbs, the VWR elist, the stargate elist, the PSI elist, public rv articles, the cia stargate files, IRVA elist and much more all in a very large database where i can search for individual words and threads. Its not everything but it is a hefty chunk of rv history at my fingertips.


    All the best...

    Daz

  2. #12

    Default

    Daz:

    About what has been borrowed and what has not, it is possible that some of the ideas from CRV,SRV, TDS, TRV filtered into the HRVG system but its a possibility that whoever sponsored the "Special Opp's" work incorporated some of these ideas into their methodology, keeping what worked for them and discarding what did not." That Glenn and Dick both had TRV and SRV experience may be incidental. That would in no way diminish the originality of each of the said RV systems. In my opinion, Playfair and the other structures used is not used in CRV or the other off shoots with the exception of S3. I see them as original and not infringing on any of the other RV territories.

    About the ideograms; they are an important part of all remote viewing so far as I caqn see, with the exception of ERV and ARV, perhaps. Its only my opinion but being critical of the ideograms is like saying we should be critical of the automobile industry for stealing ideas from the horse and buggy; they had breaks, axles and wheels. I'm not trying to be funny here or imply sarcasim, not at all. My point is that so many of the products we have today are a result of evolution; building on the backs of others and what came before.

    Well, just my opinion.

    Robert

  3. #13
    daz smith Guest

    Default

    Robert,
    I don't know what to say to please everyone.

    I have two differing viewpoints and conflicting stories. On one side it looks like there was TRV training as well as other things possibly including some 'rv exposure' in the military. On the other we have the claim of only military & NLP training and no TRV or influence of any other kind.

    Now I cant confirm with paperwork or any solid evidence to either side of this argument so I left this with a '?' on the map and the text saying so.

    I believe this is fair until (one day) paperwork or evidence either way changes the picture - don't you?

    Daz

  4. #14

    Default

    Why isn't it appropriate for all of the Stargate members to be directly under Ingo Swann? Why isn't Joe McMoneagle not even on there?

  5. #15

    Default Some people learn more than one technique

    I'm afraid your data is working against your case, Daz. When you're talking about guild members learning other techniques, it's following the phrase "Currently Remote Viewers from Hawaii"... these are people who are -already- remote viewers learning different techniques outside of their own Special Forces originated methods.

    CRV is dogmatic about sticking to "The manual" as a completed martial art, as if -- it's as good as "Viewing" gets. From this perspective, it might look like everybody is "trying to be CRV."

    Think about this. It's OK for HRVG remote viewers to learn things from other branches. Is it OK for your branch to see if something is better? HRVG is doing research. Some groups are doing religion. (Re: branding, remember Ingo Swann wouldn't let anyone use SRV - the word "scientific" was replaced with "controlled".)

    If you're working on a recent history for "the skill currently known as remote viewing", Glenn's group's origins are independent of the SRI group. A link that might help you get started is Richard Ireland ... Glenn's group's mentor analogous to "Ingo Swann" and you might want to check out the co-founders of NLP.

    The Stargate Archives are just a bit of information, a releasable bit. If you notice "Approved for Release" dates, you'll probably realize that there is a lot of information, even in that branch, that is still secret.

    I recommend that you use the "negative space" approach with your database materials if you want to get a lot more out of them. Read a lot of psi research, what natural psychics said about being psychic, etc. prior to Stargate, then see what disappeared or seems to be "under-represented" in the data.

  6. #16
    Dick Allgire Guest

    Default Daz, Can You Answer This?

    Daz,

    Have you watched my presentation at the 2007 IRVA conference? It was entitled, "HRVG Methodology, An Overview."

    Dick

  7. #17
    Zylon Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coen View Post
    Is this the map that is referred to here? I got it from Google Images a couple of months back and have been meaning to ask Dick if he knew of its existence.
    No Coen,

    There is an updated version now online at the following link
    http://www.remoteviewed.com/rvhistorymap.html


  8. #18
    daz smith Guest

    Default

    Why isn't it appropriate for all of the Stargate members to be directly under Ingo Swann? Why isn't Joe McMoneagle not even on there?
    Joe is on there - in multiple places - all correct.
    Joe wasn't trained by Ingo or in the Ingo techniques - though he was exposed to them in the unit. Joe is included in the separate programs (Grill Flame, Center Lane) then he retired and worked for SAIC and Ed May in mainly a science based route of RV (they did also do some ops work) till 1995

    Other members of the unit were also not trained by Ingo Swann or Ingo's CRV - but were trained in the adapted Military CRV that closely followed.

    Have you watched my presentation at the 2007 IRVA conference? It was entitled, "HRVG Methodology, An Overview."
    Dick,
    I did email you back on this - but for months my emails to you have bounced back - Not to my knowledge I don't think I have.

    Dave,
    I'm afraid your data is working against your case, Daz. When you're talking about guild members learning other techniques, it's following the phrase "Currently Remote Viewers from Hawaii"... these are people who are -already- remote viewers learning different techniques outside of their own Special Forces originated methods.
    The argument on my map is that I have Glenn trained in TRV - this is based on Joni's comments on her website and Glens own comments of being a TRV student. Every other person on my map even if they trained in their final 'resting' method later has all their available sources and training listed if i can verify it.

    CRV is dogmatic about sticking to "The manual" as a completed martial art, as if -- it's as good as "Viewing" gets. From this perspective, it might look like everybody is "trying to be CRV."
    I don't understand this comment - this isn't a CRV thing?

    Think about this. It's OK for HRVG remote viewers to learn things from other branches. Is it OK for your branch to see if something is better? HRVG is doing research. Some groups are doing religion. (Re: branding, remember Ingo Swann wouldn't let anyone use SRV - the word "scientific" was replaced with "controlled".)
    Im not saying it is wrong - I'm a crver - but I also mixed elements form SRV into CRV because CRV didn't work as I wanted it to - methods have to be allowed to develop and change. All I'm trying to do with the map is generate an overall rv picture.

    If you're working on a recent history for "the skill currently known as remote viewing", Glenn's group's origins are independent of the SRI group. A link that might help you get started is Richard Ireland ... Glenn's group's mentor analogous to "Ingo Swann" and you might want to check out the co-founders of NLP.
    I have already and yes I have confirmation that some NLP techniques were used in some spec ops work (increasing gun shooting accuracy, etc, etc) I can not confirm that Richard Ireland was involved in this - in fact I have other NLP peoples names.

    The Stargate Archives are just a bit of information, a releasable bit. If you notice "Approved for Release" dates, you'll probably realize that there is a lot of information, even in that branch, that is still secret.
    Absolutely - but ive never claimed my map is final or 100% accurate - its the best I can do with available information. If i ever get concrete or paper proof of Project Jedi and rv training including NLP then I will amend it all - for now I have two opposing sets of claims.

    I recommend that you use the "negative space" approach with your database materials if you want to get a lot more out of them. Read a lot of psi research, what natural psychics said about being psychic, etc. prior to Stargate, then see what disappeared or seems to be "under-represented" in the data.
    Dave, I have hundreds of books of psi, I have the important ones - before I trained in remote viewing I was a trained clairvoyant, healer, medium. I have been involved in channelling, divination (tarot, crystal ball, sand, tea) and even participated in a few exorcisms. I know the history of PSI and being psychic not as much as rv as this is my focus - but I do know it. I have books going back to the late 1800s on psi many very rare.

    All the best...

    Daz Smith














    All the best...
    Daz
    Last edited by daz smith; 2010-Jun-07 Mon at 01:32.

  9. #19
    Dick Allgire Guest

    Default Statement From Dr. Courtney Brown

    Dr. Courtney Brown is a major figure in civilian remote viewing. He published a popular book based on his TRV training with Ed Dames, "Cosmic Voyage." And he published a second book, "Remote Viewing- The Science and Theory of Nonphysical Perception."

    He weighs in the current debate:

    "The HRVG methodology is one of two unique remote-viewing methodologies developed by the U.S. military in the latter part of the 20th Century. The primary creator for this methodology was Dr. Richard Ireland, and his contribution was located within the Special Forces branch of the U.S. Army. CRV is the other primary remote-viewing methodology developed by the military, and its primary creator was Ingo Swann. His contribution was located in military intelligence (the D.I.A.) within the U.S. Army. The two methodologies differ markedly in their probing sequences as well as some of their basic fundamentals. Some of the innovations within each approach have been incorporated into other remote-viewing methodologies that are derivative of the original military versions. For example, the 'Blackboard' technique from HRVG has been incorporated into other (civilian) approaches to remote viewing, such as SRV."

    Courtney Brown, Ph.D.

  10. #20
    daz smith Guest

    Default

    well when I can find/see any real evidence of this other than hearsay I will be happy to amend my map.

    on the other side of the coin:
    a recent email from:

    XXXXXXX SFC (R) USSF, Ft.Bragg. NC

    Dear XXXXX,
    I hope you are well.
    Just a couple of last questions if I may.
    Approx how long did the jedi program last – im told it was a few months?
    Secondly did you have exposure to NLP during this program at the university of Hawaii in 1983?
    Have you ever heard or a Dr Richard Ireland?
    all the best...

    Daz
    Daz, yes this is correct, the Jedi only lasted a few months, so did the trojan warrior program. The SOLO program lasted from 1984 to 1999, with individual localized course continuing on until a couple of years ago. Most of this training is still classified.

    Yes on the NLP, but not in Hawaii. I went thru the program in NC.

    No, not a Dr. Richard Ireland, there was a Dr. Richard Clayberg from Kaman Tempo corp, Dr. Richard Graves from BDM corp.

    I hope this helps Daz..
    see what I mean conflicting claims until some evidence is produced.

    I don't see this going anywhere fast and you guys know where I am if you want to discuss but going back and forth in public does no one any good.

    Daz

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